The Dark Side of FOSS | XmrBazaar (beta)

AilliA

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Sep 17 13:43

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#82

This long text is not meant for audience engagement. I'm posting it on the public square as a form of "mod log" for the sake of transparency, community spirit, and trust :)
Originally published: https://x.com/AilliaLink/status/1965074887036358673

Everything has a dark side. I recently witnessed the ugly underbelly of the wonderful FOSS ideal. And if you don't have eight minutes to read the story below, just take my word for it: bad actors (whom I, as a biased flawed human, will refer to as PoS in the text below, read as a "Piece of S💩" or plural "Pieces of S💩💩", context-dependent) will ruin beautiful ideas for petty gains, much like spammers destroyed open email protocols. I don’t tolerate word's ugliness / PoS, so I made a controversial call that some respected XmrBazaar/Monero community members opposed. Some who agreed may have just backed me personally, which isn’t right. Feelings, especially mine, don’t matter. I’ve reversed my decision to align with the FOSS/GPL principles valued by the Monero community.
Initially, I planned a brief post, but that felt too one-sided. Instead, drawing inspiration from Svetlana Alexievich’s polyphonic narrative style in Voices from Chernobyl, I’m sharing raw logs from XmrBazaar’s public trollbox and DM quotes (shared with explicit permission, as there are more who preferred to stay unnamed).

1. Dev Reaches Out
Me and Douglas Tuman have been contacted by sukunetsiz, the developer of FOSS Kabus marketplace script:

...person on xmrbazaar is trying to sell my FOSS project with an incredible price of 1.5 XMR. He just re-branded it as "Monero United" and telling people that it is his project. This is against the license itself and also morally wrong. I would like you to take a look at it please.

Edited: Sep 17 13:49

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:40

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#115

11. My Future Stance on the XmrBazaar License
When XmrBazaar releases its code, as Douglas Tuman promised to the Monero community, I will advocate for the most restrictive license possible. This license should allow good people to verify that the code does only what it's supposed to, but ensure that no PoS💩💩 can use any part of it without risking being sued, DMCA'd...

12. PoS Kill Freedom
Bad actors once ruined the free and decentralized email protocol, which is why we’re now stuck dealing with SPF, DKIM, DMARC, Spamhaus, and M3AAWG (https://x.com/AilliaLink/status/1919126845104312341
) instead of sending emails straight from the CLI. And on a global scale, PoS💩💩 serve as the ultimate excuse for why normies buy into the idea that society NEEDS "authorities," state control, and a monopoly on violence.
I believe these (sub)humans are THE root problem preventing us from having good things like freedom, as all they care about is exploiting that freedom for their petty, quick buck, ultimately ruining it for everyone forever.

13. My Dark Side
Everything has a dark side... and everyone has a dark side too... My dark side: I hate petty (sub)humans who are the reason we can't have a free and happy society of voluntarily cooperating people without a centralized monopoly on violence and coercion.

Long Live Richard Stallman!
La libertad no tener precio!!!
Peace.

Edited: Sep 17 14:41

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AilliA

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Sep 17 13:47

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#83

2. Warning Issued
I’ve verified sukunetsiz's account, confirmed their authorship of the Kabus Marketplace project, deactivated the listings in question, and added a profile warning to TipTony's profile that reads:

ADMIN WARNING: Violated Kabus Marketplace creator's rights by rebranding and selling their FOSS project, as reported by its original creator. For Kabus Marketplace services, contact the original creator directly: https://xmrbazaar.com/user/sukunetsiz/.

Edited: Sep 17 13:50

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AilliA

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Sep 17 13:54

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#84

3. Chat Clown Circus
XmrBazaar's trollbox exploded into a clown circus, with multiple accounts, tied to a single user, attacking Kabus's original creator, myself, and other XmrBazaar users who backed my decision. Below is the unedited, raw trollbox discussion relevant to the case, with unrelated posts removed for clarity and flow:

AilliA: Please give a warm welcome to the true and only Kabus Marketplace developer, sukunetsiz! TipTony is NOT the developer and has violated FOSS author rights, so I’ve added a profile warning to reflect this. We fully support FOSS developers!

AilliA: For custom marketplace or related services, reach out to sukunetsiz directly: https://xmrbazaar.com/user/sukunetsiz/

TipTony: Aillia
I have not violated anything, I offered server maintenance and installation of kabus , he doesn’t

TipTony: I NEVER REBRANDED HIS KABUS SCRIPT

TipTony: I also had chats with him and gave him the address of my marketplace

TipTony: It was never a secret

TipTony: why scammer alert ?

TipTony: who did i scammed?

TipTony: You or him should have contacted me first , this is very unprofessional from both of you

AilliA: TipTony, there’s no scammer alert, please read the profile warning carefully. Evidence provided by sukunetsiz warranted action. We support open-source developers and encourage resolving disputes directly.

TipTony: What evidence?

TipTony: I never claimed to be the developer

TipTony: Its absolutely ridiculous

TipTony: https://ibb.co/rK1Kh5cY

TipTony: I expected better from sukunetsiz

AilliA: TipTony, please address this with the original creator and resolve it. If sukunetsiz requests, I’ll remove the warning immediately.

TipTony: His script is open source, you guys should know better

Edited: Sep 17 13:56

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AilliA

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Sep 17 13:57

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#85

(chat continued)
TipTony: @Aillia
I would greatly appreciate you deleting my account , it cannot be done from my side , thanks

ukpost: Monero United was added to kycnot.me
on May 28 as open source https://kycnot.me/service/monero-united
,Tony never said he was the developer

ukpost: seems like Sukunetsiz is acting like a victim. It’s cool that he made the script open source, but he should stop trying to make Tony look like the bad guy

ukpost: @Sukunetsiz
embarrassing

ukpost: @Aillia
i made over $1500 here , but you are in the wrong

ukpost: i’ve been around Monero United since it started and Tony’s really not as shady as you’re making him out to be

Cosmic_Serpent5: @sukunetsiz
https://ibb.co/rK1Kh5cY
what’s with the backstabbing all of a sudden ?? who hurt you

Cosmic_Serpent5: everyone knew about your script, you even got like 6 comments on reddit , no need for drama

Cosmic_Serpent5: you’ve definitely made a great impression now

orange: @Alllia
my fav admin until today

orange: @sukunetsiz
“ I want to see Monero rise, thrive, and be more widely used.“ what happened to your goal ?

orange: tony is the only one who actually used your script for that purpose

orange: your script will never make it on dread if that was your hidden agenda

vulpexvulpex: @aillia
“ Violated Kabus Marketplace rights by rebranding and selling their FOSS project“

vulpexvulpex: wow

vulpexvulpex: i’ve worked with Tony before ,he was charging $20 to install, host, and maintain the kabus script on his own servers

vulpexvulpex: as for @sukunetsiz
...what a hero ..

ukpost: @orange
“tony is the only one who actually used your script for that purpose“ i agree

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AilliA

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Sep 17 13:58

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#86

(chat continued)
TipTony: Due to being falsely accused by @Aillia
and @Sukunetsiz
of rebranding and selling an opensource script, I will no longer be accepting any orders placed through this marketplace. @Aillia
, please deactivate my account

sukunetsiz: @TipTony
, well you literally used my free open source script and tried to sell it for a whooping 1.5 XMR. The only change is editing my logo and the name.

sukunetsiz: @orange
I still want to see Monero to rise. I don’t want scammers to thrive though

sukunetsiz: You may literally download it for free on my GitHub. No need to sell it for 500$. Also there is a literal guide to how to install it for... free.

sukunetsiz: It has a license for a reason. You can’t just copy paste and edit the configuration name and call it your own script

sukunetsiz: You literally created a side account and opened a listing with it

sukunetsiz: With the name of Monero United.

sukunetsiz: If you want to earn honest money, go code your own thing. Do not try to steal other’s work. More than half of the things you sell are FOSS also.

sukunetsiz: You are free to open your own marketplace with my script. That’s the whole point. I wouldn’t report you if you tried to sell my script as your own.

sukunetsiz: One of the guys you tried to sell my code for 1.5 XMR informed me that you try to sell it like your own.

TipTony: You are twisting things here , you should be ashamed of yourself

TipTony: I never tried to sell your script

TipTony: Ive been offered 1.5 xmr to setup the server and change the script to French

TipTony: Do your homework first

keepitup: @sukunetsiz
stop the drama , , you tried to sell me your script for $100 a month, every month

keepitup: You’re just angry that nobody buys your script

keepitup: don’t open source itt if you don’t want it used

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AilliA

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Sep 17 13:59

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#87

(chat continued)
keepitup: I don’t see anyone here apart from aillia denigrating tony

keepitup: Everyone seen the screenshots , Tony even congratulate you for your work ,

keepitup: grow up

keepitup: aillia
since when admins get involved in denigrating their users ? Sukunetsiz doesn’t care about credit as he claims

keepitup: he was hoping to make $100 a month , pathetic

sukunetsiz: First of all. Stop using your alt accounts to write to me. Man up and stop the illusion that you have supporters. It’s all your alts. Secondly, Kabus-X is not a monthly subscription. Are you mentally slow? How can I charge $100 monthly from you?

sukunetsiz: Is this Youtube Premium? You pay only once for the current version of the repository.

sukunetsiz: If you do not want to update to the next versions, You may simply keep using that version. And no, Kabus-X is pretty popular among a community. Thank you though.

keepitup: would you mind sharing the links then ? who’s actually using it apart from Tony?

sukunetsiz: You may find them on Dread. I won’t share any links here.

TipTony: you didn’t want credit , you asked me $120

TipTony: DREAD ??

sukunetsiz: Well, I was totally okay with Monero United. I’m not against it. But you are trying to sell it from your alt accounts. I won’t tolerate it.

TipTony: I thought you didn’t agree to that

sukunetsiz: Nope, Keep Monero United open. That’s the whole point.

sukunetsiz: You can’t sell my code though. It has a license.

TipTony: I was reffing to dread , you claimed that you didn’t want your script used for illegal purposes , now you mention dread

sukunetsiz: And? Where did I mention an illegal purpose. It’s a forum.

TipTony: Oh come on

sukunetsiz: Keep your word games to yourself.

TipTony: Let’s just leave it

keepitup: tony
stop using his script

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:00

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#88

(chat continued)
keepitup: let him brag about how popular he is on dread

TipTony: I will

cypherpink: i wish there would be a feature to temporarily change trollbox text font to comic sans for /everyone/ online. could be really useful for clown moments

cypherpink2: warmly agreed!

not_cypherpink_alt: exactly

not_cypherpink4: gets to what i’ve been saying

cypherpink: i’m sorry for your case, sukunetsiz
. hang in there

AilliA: cypherpink, not_cypherpink4, not_cypherpink_alt, cypherpink2, thank you all ;)

orange: cypherpink
cypherpink2 not_cypherpink_alt not_cypherpink4 , we totally believe all 200 of your sales came from 100% real, totally not suspicious at all buyers

orange: can everyone please stop acting like they don’t have 40 alt accounts each ? At this point, even your alts have alts

orange: this place would be nothing without the trollbox

orange: tiptony should show actual proof that he was offered 1.5 xmr to set up the server and didn’t just ask for it himself. Then sukunetsiz can back it up with proof that tiptony really demanded the 1.5 and claimed he coded the thing

orange: and aillia? She might want to demonstrate that she didn’t just nuke tiptony,s reputation based solely on sukunetsiz bedtime story ,because if she did that’s not just a bad look , that’s straight up clown behavior

cypherpink: orange
, I’m actually feeling bad every time someone says about my orders are fake, because they aren’t, but I have no way to prove it. I’m sorry it looks suspicious, it’s not my fault :(

cypherpink: i have made a fake order once indeed, when testing how auto delivery works. I’ve messages the admins to remove it from the sales number

cypherpink: obviously, i also didn’t leave any review for myself from that fake order

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:01

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#89

(chat continued)
cypherpink: idk, do you want me to send a screenshot, showing my xmr address has received 65 XMR all-together? do you want me to send you a screenshot of conversation + transaction for any purchase you think might be fake?

orange: please do send the screenshots preferably in 4K with dramatic background music

orange: go ahead and send all that to aillia too, she might believe you. Or she’ll just ask sukunetsiz what to think again

orange: got to go , will be back

cypherpink: ⧽please do send the screenshots preferably in 4K with dramatic background music — WAHAHAHAHGAHA

TipTony: orange , i actually do have the proof , reach out if you really care

cypherpink: orange
here https://ibb.co/dh2zQBh

cypherpink: specify which dm’s you want to see

keepitup: sukunetsiz
“ Secondly, Kabus-X is not a monthly subscription. Are you mentally slow? How can I charge $100 monthly from you?“

keepitup: Your exact words were “ Hello. Currently I’m charging 100 dollars for Kabus-X. I’m planning to make monthly releases with tons of new features. So each month, If you would like to purchase a newer version, you will need to pay another 100. “

keepitup: “If you purchase right now, I will keep your version updated until 8 August. You can think it like a monthly subscription with daily updates“

keepitup: Make up your mind its a subscription or not ?

keepitup: One of us is not telling the truth here i guess

AilliA: ghosthash, I hear you. The flag’s not permanent, just a nudge to respond and sort things out. I’ve checked the DB and lifted your warning. Next time, DM me to dispute, I don’t always check trollbox, and I’ll listen to your side.

USAGI: I think cypherpink is being downvoted by bots. Several of his listings have consistently 63 downvotes.

ivanovich: only his stolen accounts listings

ivanovich: karma ?

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:02

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#90

(chat continued)
USAGI: I mean, there is no problem with someone downvoting a listing, but using bots to do so shouldn’t be allowed, even if it is a scam. If it’s a proven scam, mods should remove the listing altogether.

ivanovich: karma always finds its way , bot or not

ivanovich: selling stolen accounts shouldn’t be allowed either

By_DuPrix: Leave cypherpink alone, fools. He’s like one of the few people here who for sure is not scamming people.

Lagoon: yes you fools , leave him alone , he’s a honest thief

iDrive: Lagoon
so do you have evidence to back up this accusation?

Lagoon: • Account is shared, so don’t try change the password. • I don’t provide access to the mail

iDrive: And that’s what, proof that he’s selling access to stolen accounts? I don’t have full context. Any possibility that he might actually own this account, hence why he isn’t proving access to full owner privilidges?

Lagoon: are you actually for real here ???

Lagoon: you cant really be that naive

iDrive: I’m genuinely asking for context. I’ve had only very good experiences with cypherpink, and would be quite surprised if he was doing something illegal.

iDrive: And I really can be that naive. But accusations also still require proof, or they’re baseless

Lagoon: whats more likely ? that he creates and owns hundreds of accounts ? or that he’s getting them from leaked data bases ?

Lagoon: what he does is common procedure for 12 yo script kids

iDrive: So is that PROOF, or CONJECTURE, based on ASSUMPTION? Thus- SLANDER.

Lagoon: you people must be very new to this whole bussines

Lagoon: what ? have you lived under a rock for the last 20 years

Lagoon: i can’t believe this kind of crap still works

iDrive: Proof would be nice. Because all I’m hearing is mockery and slander, which works well for cancel culture, but it isn’t proof

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:03

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#91

(chat continued)
iDrive: Which of his offerings is this accusation referencing? For context that I still don’t have

Lagoon: yes , you do live under a rock

Lagoon: go give him a hug , i dont care ,

iDrive: Ok so you have affirmed that you prefer GRRSM mockery and shaming tactics. Excellent scientific evidence-based detective work you’re doing here

iDrive: If you’re talking about his proton account listing, for example.. well, proton accounts are free to create. Maybe he’s using a not to make them? Not illegal

iDrive: *bot

iDrive: Well, AilliA: care. Unless proven that he’s committing a crime, it’s you who are slandering a seller, which actually DOES violate this site’s TOS

iDrive: I highly doubt that cypherpink, who has gone to lengths over time to demonstrate honesty here, is doing what you claim. So I’m defending him, because reputation is the only thing that matters on here.

iDrive: Meanwhile you have no reputation or transaction history, and an account only created this month

orange: hey drive , just out of curiosity

orange: yesterday when allia was slandering the fuck out of tony , was that PROOF, or CONJECTURE, based on ASSUMPTION? Thus- SLANDER

orange: love you , bye

iDrive: orange
, idk, wasn’t here. But what does what Aillia’a actions have to do with cypherpink’a actions?

iDrive: And again, that’s is ridicule. You are attempting to ridicule me for defending someone. Which is still nit getting to the bottom of what seem to be multiple saparate issues in any kind of productive manner

iDrive: Which is fine, I ridicule people sometimes. But I I can do that with one side of my moth, while still not accusing them off conjecture.

vulpexvulpex: i was here yesterday and defending tony

vulpexvulpex: He meant that if Ailia can do it and get away with it, then why shouldn’t users be able to do the same?

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:04

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#92

(chat continued)
vulpexvulpex: there’s a good reason why Chyphr isn’t selling those accounts on eBay or Amazon

vulpexvulpex: any idea why that might be?

vulpexvulpex: i’m sure you’ll figure it out

iDrive: Maybe because he wants monero, maybe because it’s grey area? maybe it breaks tos of those services? Idk. Doesn’t make it theft or illegal

vulpexvulpex: because the majority of them are stolen my friend

iDrive: Still conjecture. And yeah sounds like maybe Aillia shouldn’t have done that. Again, wasn’t here. I just don’t want cypherpink to be getting accused of things and getting reputation he doesn’t deserve. And if he deserves it-- ok. prove it

vulpexvulpex: https://xmrbazaar.com/listing/B4Gu/

vulpexvulpex: if you don’t get it, then I can’t explain it to you . I’d have to teach you everything from scratch , and that would take forever

iDrive: @vulpex
I see nothing there that proves it’s a stolen account. I can think of several ways that could be done legally. Sounds more like multiuser proxy access to an account he actually owns, to me

iDrive: Same way I pay for access to someone else’s gym membership. It breaks that gym’s TOS, but that’s not a crime, and it isn’t a stolen account. And he could sell access to his gym membership to multiple people if he wanted.

iDrive: cypherpink
what say you? Are you a dirty criminal? Prove your innocence, as you are clearly guilty until proven innocent.

AilliA: As I mentioned earlier to ghosthash in this chat, the warning issued is never permanent: it’s a prompt to encourage a response and resolution.

AilliA: The right thing to do is to acknowledge and support the creator whose work you’re using, especially when they’ve commented under your listing directly, as they did a day before contacting me.

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Sep 17 14:05

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#93

(chat continued)
AilliA: Instead of engaging constructively and fostering community spirit, TipTony has not only profited from FOSS code but has also acted maliciously by flooding this platform with bots and targeting users who called out this behavior. This is unfortunate.

AilliA: Until we implement new systems and features to address bots, FUD, and harm to productive community members, accounts involved in such activities may be deactivated.

Iron_Tempest04: aillia
clearly guilty until proven innocent then ?

Iron_Tempest04: we take your word for it

Iron_Tempest04: no need fpr proof

TipTony: My listing was removed https://web.archive.org/web/20250725182204/https://xmrbazaar.com/listing/W8QX/
and my account flagged after I was falsely accused by Sukunetsiz and Aillia in the Trollbox of being a scammer and liar.

TipTony: They claimed I was selling the open source Kabus script and pretending to be its creator. To be clear: all I offered was hosting, server maintenance, and installation of the Kabus script as a service ,something fully permitted

TipTony: These accusations are baseless, and no proof has been provided , because there is none

TipTony: If anyone wants to hear the full story I’m happy to provide all the details

Janoher: Whether Illegal or just against TOS, I’d avoid buying such services. Say Netflix catches you on a bought account, they can cut your TV off, or the ISP can cancel your internet, or even fine/prosecute you for lost revenue.

AilliA: TipTony, first, your listings were here for months, and I didn’t care until the real author and original creator complained that they *did not permit it* and did not consider your listings as fair use of their code. I had to take action.

AilliA: “Something fully permitted“ by whom, TipTony? Only the original creator can give permission, and they definitely are against your listings.

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:05

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#94

(chat continued)
AilliA: If you’d spent a fraction of the energy you use fighting in the trollbox to get permission from the dev whose work you used, not just to profit here, but for your own marketplace, we wouldn’t have this issue. You had to make it right with the author.

TipTony: the code is licensed under the GPL v3, I am free to use it as a SaaS without needing his permission.

TipTony: his opposition to me is a personal opinion not a legal matter

TipTony: Trying to block my use of the code based on who I am or how I use it is discriminatory

TipTony: don’t have any problem with either of you, but in this case, you’re both simply wrong

TipTony: if you can show that I’m mistaken, I will gladly apologize without hesitation

AilliA: This isn’t a court or a state; here, the original creator’s permission, or lack thereof, is the ultimate authority - the creator’s explicit objection carries weight here. It’s their right to dictate how their work is used *on this platform*.

AilliA: We care about productive people, not state BS legalese. If you believe you’re in the right, resolve it directly with the creator.

TipTony: he gave me that permission by using that license

TipTony: you claim to support open-source development, you must respect the terms of open-source licenses like the GPL. Prioritizing personal or moral preferences over those legal terms undermines the entire foundation of the open-source model

TipTony: dismissing legality as “BS” enables discrimination, which contradicts the principles of open software

TipTony: the creator can’t selectively block users just because they personally disapprove

TipTony: if you want an open-source ecosystem to thrive, you have to have consistent, fair rules for everyone

DigitalPlug: That’s how courts would work under ancap 😎

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#96

(chat continued)
AilliA: tmbk the creator doesn’t object to your fair use of their code for your own marketplace, so they’re not discriminating against you personally, only against the specific use they deem unacceptable. We support open source but prioritize creators’ rights.

cypherpink: yo what the fuck has hsppened in this chat lol

cypherpink: By_DuPrix
thanks for defending me, you kind fellow. thank you iDrive
just as much, perhaps even more, since we’ve argued in the chat a lot, and you’ve still got my back eventually

cypherpink: so, i can’t see the full convo, but presuming from the few very top messages, Lagoon
is doubting if I have legally & ethically obtained netflix accounts, since I don’t provide access to the email and ask not to change the password

TipTony: aillia
that’s not how open-source licensing works , going beyond that is not protecting rights it’s violating user freedoms

cypherpink: the origin of accounts is clearly marked in the listing’s description: they’re shared. that means: one person, who want’s to pay only 1/5 of the subscribtion price gives 5 other people a chance to use profiles on their account

cypherpink: obviously, password ain’t changed, because it’s used by a five heads, and email is not shared, so one of the users can’t steal the whole account

cypherpink: this is the way I’ve got a chance to sell shared netflixes: https://ibb.co/ZphqB51y

cypherpink: (well, i haven’t partnered with this exact guy, since i already have a good deal with my friend)

cypherpink: but basically yes, it all started with my friend asking if i can find him people who’re willing to pay part of the subscribtion for using profiles

cypherpink: i don’t have dozens of the accounts, as Lagoon
questions, only one. but i can find more people interested in shared subscribtion or start my own, if it gets popular

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#97

(chat continued)
AilliA: https://x.com/AilliaLink/status/1772730934988554587

AilliA: https://x.com/AilliaLink/status/1848583445431066652

AilliA: https://x.com/AilliaLink/status/1800623544042471720/photo/1

Janoher: If I was on X, I’d “Like“ those posts and retweet them. I wish more thralls could see this. It’s as though authority puts a mental iron curtain inside their brains. They can’t see past it.

Janoher: But I’m making no judgement on the Kabus issue. Not my problem to get involved in.

cypherpink: still, i never steal from the people, nor like doing other unethical stuff. if something goes wrong, i refund https://ibb.co/PGBvC0gd

cypherpink: ok, my longread is over, thanks for attention, sorry for a word salad

DigitalPlug: TipTony
, they get your point, but they clearly stated that they don’t care about licensing and all that; they decided to enforce their own policies. The license’s rules will defend you in court but not here. It’s their right to judge by their own rules.

DigitalPlug: I’m not saying I agree with this, but this is just how it is. And what I wanted to say is that it’s just pointless to try to prove anything to the admin considering they told you they get your point. You just gotta relax.

DigitalPlug: And just for the record, I’m personally on your side.

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Sep 17 14:08

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#98

4. Bots Attack
~100–200 alt accounts/bots swarmed cypherpink’s listings with downvotes, seemingly triggered by cypherpink’s public support (in their signature humorous flair) for my decision to slap an admin warning on TipTony’s account and pull listings at the request of the original Kabus developer.

cypherpink: i wish there would be a feature to temporarily change trollbox text font to comic sans for /everyone/ online. could be really useful for clown moments
cypherpink2: warmly agreed!
eyejay: o_O
not_cypherpink_alt: exactly
not_cypherpink4: gets to what i've been saying
cypherpink: i'm sorry for your case, sukunetsiz. hang in there
AilliA: cypherpink, not_cypherpink4, not_cypherpink_alt, cypherpink2, thank you all ;)[/i]

I DM'd cypherpink and assured that we will fix the situation:

regarding those downvotes -- please no stress at all -- we've already turned off the up/downvote system and we're clearing out Tony's bots' downvotes now. Sep 5, 03:31

we've cleaned up the downvotes :) Sep 5, 04:31

Edited: Sep 17 14:12

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#99

5. GPL License Debate
Then I was contacted by people I respect, Ashley Jones among them, regarding the importance of GPL and FOSS standards. Ashley generously allowed me to quote her. Here is the relevant unedited excerpt from her message:

I saw the recent Kabus conversation and it seems you misunderstand the issue with giving TipTony the warning and removing the listing.
The Kabus software TipTony is using is licensed under the GPL -- the GNU Public License. This license is very important and is utilized often in the open source world (including with Monero).
Any software that's released under the GPL v3 allows anyone to create anything from that software; including rebranding the software and redistributing or even selling it under another name. This happens all the time, frequently known as "forks". Brave is a fork of Google Chrome. Tor Browser is a fork of Firefox (Firefox ESR). GrapheneOS is a fork of Android.
If the creator of the open source GPL software dislikes how someone uses their software (e.g. rebranding it and selling it), there is nothing they can do to prevent it, because GPL allows anyone to do exactly that with the software. Developers are (or should be) fully aware of this. Most encourage it. Even though someone may have created the software, by voluntarily licensing it under the GPL, they relinquish their right to control what people do with that source code. You can see for yourself on the Kabus Github page by reading the GPL: https://github.com/sukunetsiz/kabus?tab=GPL-3.0-1-ov-file#readme

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Sep 17 14:16

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#100

(Ashley's message continued)
Quote from the GPL v3:
"When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for them if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs, and that you know you can do these things."

It's quite the opposite of legalese, the job of the license is to allow people to create freely without people stopping it. If the developer of Kabus didn't want others to utilze his software the way TipTony is doing, then the developer simply shouldn't have licensed the software under the GPL. This is speaking purely logically, I have no dog in this fight other than being passionate about the entirety of the Gnu project, and I got the impression that you misunderstood the importance of creating software with the GPL.
TipTony may have reacted very poorly, but, he wasn't doing anything wrong with his listing. He didn't violate any creator rights since the software is GPL licensed. As I stated in the Trollbox, the GPL is the reason people are legally allowed to sell GIMP (even under a different name) on CD on eBay. Following your logic, where a creator has last-say despite the imporance of the software holding GPL, that means many sellers on XMRbazaar (such as myself) are at risk of having listings removed if a creator dislikes our application of their GPL software. This logic doesn't make sense, and this is why I suspect you misunderstand the concept and importance of GPL. For example, I've listed a service where I offer to install PeerTube for people, software that uses GPL as the license. Do a search for "WordPress" on XMRBazaar, and you will find many listings of people offering to install or administrate this GPL software for others.

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#101

(Ashley's message continued)
I do not see how this is different from what TipTony was doing. His service was offering to install the software on the server and manage it -- much like a lot of us are doing with other GPL software.
Also, TipTony was not doing anything illegal. I know your job is to keep things legal on XMRBazaar...
Again, I just want to reiterate that I'm not at all coming from a bad place. I just care about open source, GNU project, Monero, and XMRBazaar.

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Sep 17 14:17

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#102

6. Creator's Response
I discussed this perspective with others, including the original creator of the Kabus marketplace, sukunetsiz, who responded thoughtfully (quoted with permission):

Fair enough. That's probably coming from AshleyJones. Well, she may be right from the legal side, though it is saddening from the open-source perspective. I have put more than a year into this project just for the sake of open-source and Monero. I could have chosen to sell it. Maybe that was a mistake on my part to open-source it, by the logic of her words. The reason I stopped open-source development of Kabus was people like TipTony. Two other people were trying to sell the script for thousands after rebranding it.
...
If you see it as a must-do to remove the warning from his account, ... I would appreciate it if he put "This marketplace is made with Kabus" under the description of his product listing. Though I would still prefer for his account to keep being flagged with that warning, as I still see this as labor theft. It's also discouraging for developers to open-source projects. No one will probably make another open-source script after seeing how easy it is for a random guy to just rebrand it and act like it's their own.

And personally, I feel the creator's pain. As a human, I'm totally empathizing with the long hours of work being exploited and misused by freeloaders. But I'm not a human for XmrBazaar; I'll push buttons to do what the community deems right, and the Monero/XmrBazaar community believes in GPL licensing: "it’s like the Bible written by Richard Stallman".

Edited: Sep 17 14:54

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Sep 17 14:22

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#104

7. Advice
I asked Ashley what she would do, as I respect her experience with her portion of the web (very!) wild west, and her opinion.
Ashley replied with a "novel" and cute ASCII art, and I'll post the link here: https://dukenukemis.cool/textfile95.txt :

I know in your position, you have to make a lot of decisions daily, and surely deal with a lot of crazies.
While I don't know the exact things TipTony has done, I've made the (reasonable) assumption that he's upvoted his own listings, reviewed himself many times, trolled users in the Trollbox, spammed comments and downvotes, because the "people" who do this all have the same writing style and operate all at the same time. So I believe you when you say there's been trouble with him.
You ask -- what would I do? Personally, this is my thought process:
In this specific isolated incident, where he is listing a service that utilizes open source GPL software to install and administer on a server -- he is doing nothing wrong. He would only be doing wrong if he refuses to provide the source code with his service, as that breaks the GPL license. Aside from that, he's in the clear and hasn't "stolen" something that is licensed with GPL.
When you consider the other things he is probably doing, it may be tempting to want to penalize him for this listing, but, objectively the listing itself has not misused the code. Therefore, penalizing him for it sets a presedent for the rest of the community here. It can lead to confusion (like it did for me), or probably distrust among some users if the admin doesn't uphold the importance of GPL products. There's a lot of Linux and open source-savy people on XMRBazaar, and I feel like if they read the current warning on his account, they would be confused, as open source software almost always enables others to utilize the code how he was doing.

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Sep 17 14:23

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#105

(Ashley's quote continues)
So, for me personally, I would leave it. I think consistency and unbiased ruling is the right way to proceed. So whether it's me or some (probably) scummy guy hosting Kabus, it's not stealing code and it's legal.
As for moderation, I have dealt with my fair share of nutjobs in the 10 years of running imageboards. I used to try to abide by "never deleting anything" in favor of free speech. However, you will eventually run into bad apples who make a point of disrupting the flow or basic goal of the website. For example, my goal of an imageboard is to allow users to freely communicate with one another. Naturally, I wouldn't want to censor discussion. However, I have one very persistant user who always discourages people from posting, because anytime people post, he responds with insults over and over until people decide to stop posting. It works, he usually stops discussion because people get tired of being told they're stupid, shouldn't post etc., and then the imageboard is dead for weeks.
Nobody likes this behavior, it disrupts the entire point of the website (to discuss), and this individual has been warned. But warning alone didn't stop him, so I eventually resorted to deleting those posts. I ruled that it was in the community's general best interest to allow discussion without the spammy-insults that disrupted the general flow and idea of the website. Doing this drastically helped get discussion going again. And people were very understanding, "censorship" wasn't my goal. My goal was to have an imageboard where good-faith discussion could take place. Most people are sypmathetic and can spot a bad-faith person.

Edited: Sep 17 14:23

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Sep 17 14:25

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#106

(Ashley's quote continues)
To get around "censorship", my board has a "mod log". Anything I remove gets listed in my mod log along with the date I took this action, the reasoning, and the contents of the post if I wanted. This allows complete transparency so people can see I don't abuse power, and that any actions I take are not burried. It's out in the open for people to see.
I'm a proponent of freedom of speech too, obviously. However, imagine if a guy went to a movie theater, bought a ticket, and then in the middle of the movie got up in front of the screen and started reciting poetry in as loud a voice as he could muster. If someone did this, they'd be kicked out of the movie theater, and rightfully so. Nobody is trying to 'censor' them or stifle their freedom of speech -- but the movie theater is selling a product (an enjoyable movie-watching experience) and this person, who entered the theater voluntarily, is acting in bad faith and ruining the product for everyone else. That's a silly scenario, but this is effectively what people who act in bad faith in any kind of online community are doing. As the manager of a movie theater, or as an administrator of a website, my opinion is that you not only have a right to remove these people, but an obligation to do so. A "mod log" adds transparency, so that everyone else on the website can understand exactly why certain administrative actions were taken. Without this transparency, the guy in the example before could go around town telling everyone that the movie theater kicked him out "for no reason," when that's obviously not the case. A transparent mod log gives a community more trust in the administration, because if they DO happen to see an action taken on the mod log that they disagree with, they can voice their opinion then. In 99% of scenarios (deleting spam, banning obvious bad-faith users) the community will thank you for dealing with the problem.

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Sep 17 14:26

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#107

(Ashley's quote continues)
The above is my personal opinion. It can be hard balancing absolute free speech with a website that accepts user-submissions like xmrbazaar. You will get people absuing certain aspects. My advice is to remember the general goal of the website, and care and tend to the website to achieve that goal. Even in an anarchist society, there are general agreed upon ethics or order that a community agrees upon. It's a matter of balancing order with respecting people's ability to utilize the tool/platform you give them in a productive manner.
Also, you are free to use any part of the message I had sent you, thanks for asking. You can keep it anonymous or put my name on it, either way is fine. I would've put some ascii art in there if I knew it might be shown off. Better late than never:

So here I am, posting this on the public square, as a form of "mod log" for the sake of transparency, community spirit, and trust :)

Edited: Sep 17 14:29

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Sep 17 14:30

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#108

8. Kabus License Revision
I discussed further with sukunetsiz:

sukunetsiz: I am considering to change my license to a custom made one for a legal foundation if it is needed Sep 6, 07:48

AilliA: ...I’m truly sorry you’re having to deal with this headache at all, especially after pouring over a year of your time and passion into Kabus just for the love of open-source and Monero. That’s incredibly generous, and it’s frustrating to see ppl like Tony take advantage of that. I totally get where you’re coming from; we’ve been feeling the pressure to open-source our own code for a while now too, and situations like this make this decision even tougher.
...And honestly, I couldn’t care less about nation-state laws, they’re not real laws to me, lol. What matters is the community, trust, transparency, and apparently Monero community respects FOSS principles: it’s clear a lot of people care deeply about licenses like this. I’m really glad you’re considering updating your license, it sounds like a smart move to protect your work while keeping the spirit of open-source alive. ...if we reactivate Tony’s Kabus listings, I can add a custom admin warning to the listings saying something like “This marketplace is made with Kabus by sukunetsiz: check out the original at [GitHub and xmrbazaar links ].

sukunetsiz
...first of all I would suggest to never open-source xmrbazaar really, haha. We will see a monerobazaar the next day with a different color design :) And yes, you may write a X post about it, quote me or anything. No problem. And yes, I’m making the final changes on the new license, with also help of a lawyer friend of mine. It probably won’t mean much in an unlikely court case but at least it will be enough for DMCA takedowns. Also thank you, I would really appreciate that warning to be placed in case you will need to remove his account warning :)

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Sep 17 14:32

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#109

9. Purging the Bots
I announced in our trollbox:

Until we implement new systems and features to address bots, FUD, and harm to productive community members, accounts involved in such activities may be deactivated.

and enforced this part of our ToS:

NO HARM TO OTHER USERS OR TO THE PLATFORM ALLOWED: Users may not harm, threaten or harass other users. Users may not spam, scam, phish, hack or cause any other harm or inconvenience to other users or the platform. XmrBazaar can ban members at any time for any reason.

by identifying TipTony's alts/bots using data science heuristics, some of which Ashley intuited in her second message:

I've made the (reasonable) assumption that he's upvoted his own listings, reviewed himself many times, trolled users in the Trollbox, spammed comments and downvotes, because the "people" who do this all have the same writing style and operate all at the same time.

Initially, I planned to detail the data analysis methods in this (already epically long!) post, applicable even though XmrBazaar doesn’t log IPs. However, spelling out the game rules would only tip off bad actors, so I'll keep it vague. Let’s just say, with my IRL skills / qualifications, I could (in theory, because I’d rather not deal with it) serve as an expert witness in common law courts (as those statist credentials still seem to matter to some ppl). As a result, I’ve disabled the identified alt accounts and bots, except ukpost and TipTony’s main account.

Edited: Sep 17 14:34

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Sep 17 14:34

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#110

I wrote Ashley:

I get your point on this isolated incident with the GPL stuff, and I appreciate you laying out why penalizing just for that could confuse folks or set a weird precedent in our open-source-loving crowd. That’s why I use my twitter account like a public square: to discuss, log, and hash out these controversial situations openly with the community. It keeps things transparent and lets everyone chime in.
...Either way, we’re on the path to resolving this. Tony’s actions actually triggered some positive changes to clean up the place: we’ve already disabled the up/downvote system entirely. And sukunetsiz is considering changing their license, so we’ll handle that to the satisfaction of all the FOSS license lovers out there :)))

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Sep 17 14:36

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#111

10. Long Live FOSS
TipTony couldn't care less about peer-to-peer / genuine human connections: they flat-out refused to make things right with the Kabus creator, opting instead to lash out at them and other users while hiding behind the cold letter of the law and the supposed "unprovability" of their (or their alts') actions.
I genuinely believe the author, the real human who poured endless hours into their creation, should have the final say on how it's used. But those respectable XmrBazaar / Monero community members who chose to voice their opinion to me disagree and respect FOSS/GNU license, which I as not-a-human-but-as-admin will dutifully enforce :)
That said, it doesn't change the fact that TipTony is still a total PoS, who "upvoted his own listings, reviewed himself many times, trolled users in the Trollbox, spammed comments and downvotes, because the "people" who do this all have the same writing style and operate all at the same time".
Regardless: TipTony's account warning has been lifted:

The listings in question have been reinstated with links to the original creator:

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#112

[Deleted by poster]

Edited: Sep 17 14:50

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Sep 17 14:38

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#113

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Edited: Sep 17 14:49

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Sep 17 14:49

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#116

[Deleted by poster]

Edited: Sep 17 14:50

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Sep 17 16:45

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#118

Ok. So the way I'm seeing it is similar to AshleyJones.

On this site, many users violate the TOS of various platforms -- Amazon, Netflix, etc. It isn't illegal, but we aren't really treating their "obvious wishes" with respect. Were we stealing and reselling something from them though, that would be illegal, breaking the site's rules, and possibly bringing unwanted heat.

It seems to me that Sukenetsiz chose a form of licensing that did not actually align with his purposes. He made it legal, fully legal for TipTony to use it as he did, to my understandin. He could have protected his property by the law, but he opened it by the law. And now Sukenetsiz is technically trying to do something illegal -- violating someones rights. Even though it's property he originally designed, it's no longer in his possession, but the world's. He chose this by the license he selected.

We don't defend Amazons, EBay's, Netfix's creative freedom here, going above and beyond the law to protect their perceived IP. We push the boundaries and repurpose these products for our own grey usecases. But we still stay within the law, on this platform.

To make an extreme case: Monsanto. Monsanto created GMO corn that spreads across the world. They created those genetics. Do we defend their creative rights? No. We don't respect them. I personally think with IP that there's a limit, after which you can't reasonably expect every copy of your work to be owned by you. It's one thing to own the original Mona Lisa, another to expect to own every picture someone snaps of it.

But in this case, rather than even try to protect his work the way he intended to, he chose a structure that didn't do what he wanted. So he opened it up from the getgo,

If the mods here want to use a separate ethic to make their determinations, that's another story and I guess that's fine. But the decisions will be on a case by case basis based on feels and not applied uniformly, or we'd be defending megacorps feels too.

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iDrive

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Sep 17 16:54

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#119

I'm not that versed in GPL but I know that Creative Commons Copyleft has several types, some that require crediting the creator, some that offer free use for noncommercial use etc. It's hard to accomodate every nuance or edge scenario with a handful of rough laws. And I know we aren't necessarily a group of people who respect laws. But interpersonal agreements are still important and it seems like more well-firmed verbiage around expectations might have helped allay misunderstanding or unintended consequences. At least within this community, if not the broader world.

I've thought several times about releasing music, designs etc under the most fully open licensing. But after thinking about it more, there can be a lot of unintended consequences that AREN'T good for everyone, just because it sounds like the nice and cool thing to do.

edit: I didn't realize there was a second page of thus discussion. Some of the things I said got brought up already

Edited: Sep 17 17:03

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hedgehog

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Sep 17 17:02

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#120

Thanks AilliA for taking out the trash, doing it with considerable soul searching and grace.
Kudos to AshleyJones also, for the well reasoned advice.

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AilliA

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Sep 17 17:24

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#122

Reply to post #120

Thank you, hedgehog 🌺❤️

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