The Dark Side of FOSS

AilliA

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Sep 17 14:22

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#104

7. Advice
I asked Ashley what she would do, as I respect her experience with her portion of the web (very!) wild west, and her opinion.
Ashley replied with a "novel" and cute ASCII art, and I'll post the link here: https://dukenukemis.cool/textfile95.txt :

I know in your position, you have to make a lot of decisions daily, and surely deal with a lot of crazies.
While I don't know the exact things TipTony has done, I've made the (reasonable) assumption that he's upvoted his own listings, reviewed himself many times, trolled users in the Trollbox, spammed comments and downvotes, because the "people" who do this all have the same writing style and operate all at the same time. So I believe you when you say there's been trouble with him.
You ask -- what would I do? Personally, this is my thought process:
In this specific isolated incident, where he is listing a service that utilizes open source GPL software to install and administer on a server -- he is doing nothing wrong. He would only be doing wrong if he refuses to provide the source code with his service, as that breaks the GPL license. Aside from that, he's in the clear and hasn't "stolen" something that is licensed with GPL.
When you consider the other things he is probably doing, it may be tempting to want to penalize him for this listing, but, objectively the listing itself has not misused the code. Therefore, penalizing him for it sets a presedent for the rest of the community here. It can lead to confusion (like it did for me), or probably distrust among some users if the admin doesn't uphold the importance of GPL products. There's a lot of Linux and open source-savy people on XmrBazaar, and I feel like if they read the current warning on his account, they would be confused, as open source software almost always enables others to utilize the code how he was doing.

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:23

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#105

(Ashley's quote continues)
So, for me personally, I would leave it. I think consistency and unbiased ruling is the right way to proceed. So whether it's me or some (probably) scummy guy hosting Kabus, it's not stealing code and it's legal.
As for moderation, I have dealt with my fair share of nutjobs in the 10 years of running imageboards. I used to try to abide by "never deleting anything" in favor of free speech. However, you will eventually run into bad apples who make a point of disrupting the flow or basic goal of the website. For example, my goal of an imageboard is to allow users to freely communicate with one another. Naturally, I wouldn't want to censor discussion. However, I have one very persistant user who always discourages people from posting, because anytime people post, he responds with insults over and over until people decide to stop posting. It works, he usually stops discussion because people get tired of being told they're stupid, shouldn't post etc., and then the imageboard is dead for weeks.
Nobody likes this behavior, it disrupts the entire point of the website (to discuss), and this individual has been warned. But warning alone didn't stop him, so I eventually resorted to deleting those posts. I ruled that it was in the community's general best interest to allow discussion without the spammy-insults that disrupted the general flow and idea of the website. Doing this drastically helped get discussion going again. And people were very understanding, "censorship" wasn't my goal. My goal was to have an imageboard where good-faith discussion could take place. Most people are sypmathetic and can spot a bad-faith person.

Edited: Sep 17 14:23

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:25

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#106

(Ashley's quote continues)
To get around "censorship", my board has a "mod log". Anything I remove gets listed in my mod log along with the date I took this action, the reasoning, and the contents of the post if I wanted. This allows complete transparency so people can see I don't abuse power, and that any actions I take are not burried. It's out in the open for people to see.
I'm a proponent of freedom of speech too, obviously. However, imagine if a guy went to a movie theater, bought a ticket, and then in the middle of the movie got up in front of the screen and started reciting poetry in as loud a voice as he could muster. If someone did this, they'd be kicked out of the movie theater, and rightfully so. Nobody is trying to 'censor' them or stifle their freedom of speech -- but the movie theater is selling a product (an enjoyable movie-watching experience) and this person, who entered the theater voluntarily, is acting in bad faith and ruining the product for everyone else. That's a silly scenario, but this is effectively what people who act in bad faith in any kind of online community are doing. As the manager of a movie theater, or as an administrator of a website, my opinion is that you not only have a right to remove these people, but an obligation to do so. A "mod log" adds transparency, so that everyone else on the website can understand exactly why certain administrative actions were taken. Without this transparency, the guy in the example before could go around town telling everyone that the movie theater kicked him out "for no reason," when that's obviously not the case. A transparent mod log gives a community more trust in the administration, because if they DO happen to see an action taken on the mod log that they disagree with, they can voice their opinion then. In 99% of scenarios (deleting spam, banning obvious bad-faith users) the community will thank you for dealing with the problem.

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:26

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#107

(Ashley's quote continues)
The above is my personal opinion. It can be hard balancing absolute free speech with a website that accepts user-submissions like XmrBazaar. You will get people absuing certain aspects. My advice is to remember the general goal of the website, and care and tend to the website to achieve that goal. Even in an anarchist society, there are general agreed upon ethics or order that a community agrees upon. It's a matter of balancing order with respecting people's ability to utilize the tool/platform you give them in a productive manner.
Also, you are free to use any part of the message I had sent you, thanks for asking. You can keep it anonymous or put my name on it, either way is fine. I would've put some ascii art in there if I knew it might be shown off. Better late than never:

So here I am, posting this on the public square, as a form of "mod log" for the sake of transparency, community spirit, and trust :)

Edited: Sep 17 14:29

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:30

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#108

8. Kabus License Revision
I discussed further with sukunetsiz:

sukunetsiz: I am considering to change my license to a custom made one for a legal foundation if it is needed Sep 6, 07:48

AilliA: ...I’m truly sorry you’re having to deal with this headache at all, especially after pouring over a year of your time and passion into Kabus just for the love of open-source and Monero. That’s incredibly generous, and it’s frustrating to see ppl like Tony take advantage of that. I totally get where you’re coming from; we’ve been feeling the pressure to open-source our own code for a while now too, and situations like this make this decision even tougher.
...And honestly, I couldn’t care less about nation-state laws, they’re not real laws to me, lol. What matters is the community, trust, transparency, and apparently Monero community respects FOSS principles: it’s clear a lot of people care deeply about licenses like this. I’m really glad you’re considering updating your license, it sounds like a smart move to protect your work while keeping the spirit of open-source alive. ...if we reactivate Tony’s Kabus listings, I can add a custom admin warning to the listings saying something like “This marketplace is made with Kabus by sukunetsiz: check out the original at [GitHub and XmrBazaar links ].

sukunetsiz
...first of all I would suggest to never open-source XmrBazaar really, haha. We will see a monerobazaar the next day with a different color design :) And yes, you may write a X post about it, quote me or anything. No problem. And yes, I’m making the final changes on the new license, with also help of a lawyer friend of mine. It probably won’t mean much in an unlikely court case but at least it will be enough for DMCA takedowns. Also thank you, I would really appreciate that warning to be placed in case you will need to remove his account warning :)

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:32

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#109

9. Purging the Bots
I announced in our trollbox:

Until we implement new systems and features to address bots, FUD, and harm to productive community members, accounts involved in such activities may be deactivated.

and enforced this part of our ToS:

NO HARM TO OTHER USERS OR TO THE PLATFORM ALLOWED: Users may not harm, threaten or harass other users. Users may not spam, scam, phish, hack or cause any other harm or inconvenience to other users or the platform. XmrBazaar can ban members at any time for any reason.

by identifying TipTony's alts/bots using data science heuristics, some of which Ashley intuited in her second message:

I've made the (reasonable) assumption that he's upvoted his own listings, reviewed himself many times, trolled users in the Trollbox, spammed comments and downvotes, because the "people" who do this all have the same writing style and operate all at the same time.

Initially, I planned to detail the data analysis methods in this (already epically long!) post, applicable even though XmrBazaar doesn’t log IPs. However, spelling out the game rules would only tip off bad actors, so I'll keep it vague. Let’s just say, with my IRL skills / qualifications, I could (in theory, because I’d rather not deal with it) serve as an expert witness in common law courts (as those statist credentials still seem to matter to some ppl). As a result, I’ve disabled the identified alt accounts and bots, except ukpost and TipTony’s main account.

Edited: Sep 17 14:34

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:34

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#110

I wrote Ashley:

I get your point on this isolated incident with the GPL stuff, and I appreciate you laying out why penalizing just for that could confuse folks or set a weird precedent in our open-source-loving crowd. That’s why I use my twitter account like a public square: to discuss, log, and hash out these controversial situations openly with the community. It keeps things transparent and lets everyone chime in.
...Either way, we’re on the path to resolving this. Tony’s actions actually triggered some positive changes to clean up the place: we’ve already disabled the up/downvote system entirely. And sukunetsiz is considering changing their license, so we’ll handle that to the satisfaction of all the FOSS license lovers out there :)))

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:36

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#111

10. Long Live FOSS
TipTony couldn't care less about peer-to-peer / genuine human connections: they flat-out refused to make things right with the Kabus creator, opting instead to lash out at them and other users while hiding behind the cold letter of the law and the supposed "unprovability" of their (or their alts') actions.
I genuinely believe the author, the real human who poured endless hours into their creation, should have the final say on how it's used. But those respectable XmrBazaar / Monero community members who chose to voice their opinion to me disagree and respect FOSS/GNU license, which I as not-a-human-but-as-admin will dutifully enforce :)
That said, it doesn't change the fact that TipTony is still a total PoS, who "upvoted his own listings, reviewed himself many times, trolled users in the Trollbox, spammed comments and downvotes, because the "people" who do this all have the same writing style and operate all at the same time".
Regardless: TipTony's account warning has been lifted:

The listings in question have been reinstated with links to the original creator:

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Sep 17 14:37

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#112

[Deleted by poster]

Edited: Sep 17 14:50

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Sep 17 14:38

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#113

[Deleted by poster]

Edited: Sep 17 14:49

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AilliA

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Sep 17 14:40

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#115

11. My Future Stance on the XmrBazaar License
When XmrBazaar releases its code, as Douglas Tuman promised to the Monero community, I will advocate for the most restrictive license possible. This license should allow good people to verify that the code does only what it's supposed to, but ensure that no PoS💩💩 can use any part of it without risking being sued, DMCA'd...

12. PoS Kill Freedom
Bad actors once ruined the free and decentralized email protocol, which is why we’re now stuck dealing with SPF, DKIM, DMARC, Spamhaus, and M3AAWG (https://x.com/AilliaLink/status/1919126845104312341
) instead of sending emails straight from the CLI. And on a global scale, PoS💩💩 serve as the ultimate excuse for why normies buy into the idea that society NEEDS "authorities," state control, and a monopoly on violence.
I believe these (sub)humans are THE root problem preventing us from having good things like freedom, as all they care about is exploiting that freedom for their petty, quick buck, ultimately ruining it for everyone forever.

13. My Dark Side
Everything has a dark side... and everyone has a dark side too... My dark side: I hate petty (sub)humans who are the reason we can't have a free and happy society of voluntarily cooperating people without a centralized monopoly on violence and coercion.

Long Live Richard Stallman!
La libertad no tener precio!!!
Peace.

Edited: Sep 17 14:41

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Sep 17 14:49

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#116

[Deleted by poster]

Edited: Sep 17 14:50

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hedgehog

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Sep 17 17:02

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#120

Thanks AilliA for taking out the trash, doing it with considerable soul searching and grace.
Kudos to AshleyJones also, for the well reasoned advice.

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AilliA

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Sep 17 17:24

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#122

Reply to post #120

Thank you, hedgehog 🌺❤️

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