NULLCART.NET START YOUR MONERO SHOP WITH NULLCART FOSS!!!

nobswebdev

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Aug 29 02:11

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#1971

I would like to present project that I developed for the community with mission to support crypto economy. Nullcart is free and open-source self-hosted Monero shop. Complete crypto e-commerce solution, with no third parties integrations.

I invite you to host your own shops and to collaborate. I would like this project to be community-driven, and if there is enough interest it could grow into something really interesting.

The first idea that came to mind: once there are enough instances, create a central site that lists all shops with an advanced rating system — similar to kycnot.me — and a space for the community.

If there is interest, I can add more e-commerce features, maybe more privacy coins, or other good ideas from community members.

Website: https://nullcart.net/

You can test live demo instance checkout flow with stagenet Monero

Live demo (clearnet): https://demo.nullcart.net/
Live demo (onion): http://3jh2ltksxtsmjidik3st6dawfdcheo2cyv2vth2365af75zdxnwqqsyd.onion/

Source code (clearnet): https://git.nobswebdev.com/nobswebdev/nullcart
Source code (onion): http://4f5t7o2vgo4sdaliwax3isyxzfuxvbvkuwk4smfowutrvx2uneu4egyd.onion/nobswebdev/nullcart

Website features:
- Free and open source
- No JS on buyer shop
- No buyer accounts
- Non-custodial wallet
- XMR-only payments
- Zero third-party processors
- Own wallet integration
- Encrypted sensitive data
- Auto order data wipe
- Self-hosted clearnet + onion
- SimpleX merchant alerts
- Product catalog, categories, and variants with image galleries
- Shopping cart, checkout, and discount codes
- Auto-deliver digital goods; quote and collect shipping for physical orders
- Order tracking, live payment status, and per-order buyer chat
- Custom branding - your logo, favicon, and shop name
- Prices shown in fiat, paid in Monero with live exchange rates

Edited: Aug 31 19:52

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SoulReaver

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Aug 29 03:39

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#1973

I don’t know how far it will go, but congratulations on taking the initiative to build an alternative, especially one that is free and open source. Even if NullCart is currently more of a self hosted shop platform than a direct alternative for XmrBazaar, it is important to have more options for the Monero ecosystem. Independent platforms can give sellers more control, reduce reliance on a single marketplace, and make the ecosystem more resilient.

Edited: Aug 29 04:04

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nobswebdev

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Aug 29 12:07

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#1978

Reply to post #1973

thank you

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yuzuki

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Aug 31 06:32

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#1988

Certified AI slop.

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nobswebdev

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Aug 31 11:19

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#1991

Reply to post #1988

yuzuki Be quite little man. NullCart places a very strong emphasis on code quality, architecture, and solutions. One of the benefits of open source projects is that anyone can look at the code and criticize its quality or any of the solutions. If you have any concerns, I invite you to a substantive discussion: https://git.nobswebdev.com/nobswebdev/nullcart

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nobswebdev

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Aug 31 18:30

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#1992

Yesterday I decided to expand the supported cryptocurrencies to include Bitcoin, and today I started work on the update. I made this decision in order to be able to publish my promotional post for NullCart in the main category of service promotions on bitcointalk.org. Currently, my post had to be placed in the altcoins category, where it has significantly less visibility compared to the main category. Despite being placed in a subcategory, my post was very well received by the bitcointalk community. I think it's a good move to offer the option to pay with Bitcoin. Although it's not my favorite cryptocurrency, it is the most popular and has the highest liquidity, which could translate into greater interest in NullCart.

For those interested, I'm leaving a link to my post on bitcointalk: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5592686.0

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yuzuki

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Aug 31 21:07

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#1993

Reply to post #1991

Yeah, everyone says that. It doesn't change the fact that this is SlopWare. The issue is that most slop projects don't make it very long. You have ADD developers pumping out projects and eventually they stop maintaining them, which leaves everyone else holding the bag. The other problem is not just code quality, but the logic and UX, which are elements that are almost always completely neglected by developers. There are too many slop coders infesting the Monero and darknet communities with simplistic projects that often have no longevity. Good quality projects take a lot of planning and effort like Mitra made by silverpill who is a highly skilled and committed developer.

When it comes to these rapidly AI prototyped projects on the other hand, why wouldn't someone just make their own shop using AI? It's basically the exact same result. Why would anyone need an AI boilerplate repo, when they could just make their own and use the languages and frameworks they want? Where exactly is the value? There isn't much and that's the problem. In the same way that selling AI art is largely pointless, since you could just as easily use AI to make your own and get the art that you want.

The Monero community really needs to take a tougher stance on SlopWare. It really does not look good when virtually every dev who creates a Monero related project is just using AI to slop code software.

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SoulReaver

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Aug 31 21:58

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#1994

Reply to post #1993

Can you substantiate your claim via actual evidence from codebase? I took a look, not deeply but I found some evidence against it.

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yuzuki

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Aug 31 23:47

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#1995

Reply to post #1994

Literally in the deployment guide:

```
cd /root
git clone https://github.com//nullcart.git nullcart
git clone https://git.nobswebdev.com/nobswebdev/nullcart.git nullcart
cd nullcart
```

Replace `/nullcart` with your actual repository URL once published.
```

Yes, I too speak to myself in 2nd person when I develop software. Not to mention, it uses the exact same theme frequently used by AI, which is usually a low quality replica of what sites like n8n.io look like by using a color palette consisting of one color with neon gradients everywhere.

And docker? NodeJS? In the privacy–obsessed and darknet–adjacent Monero world? Any decent programmer would at least entertain the idea of building software based on rust. NodeJS is literally the favorite language used by AI web devs given the insane number of projects AIs have been trained on.

If you use less popular frameworks and languages, it's going to take longer to develop, because AI is less optimal for those. It has all the markers of having been developed by AI.

These projects don't last very long and are eventually abandoned. The other problem is that this software project wasn't built for any existing CMS. Why develop an eCommerce marketplace from scratch when you could just easily focus on creating an integration into an existing CMS? It would be far more focused and much easier to maintain in the long run. Custom projects like this are only possible because of AI. Before AI, these projects would take a considerable amount of time without the prospect of any monetary incentives. They are thereby untenable. They still are in a way, except instead of spending too much time working on them, you can just outsource it to AI and be done with them in a matter of days.

Everything from the lack of proper business requirements, use of docker and JS, generic design, and the faulty logic are all clear markers that this is an AI project with little thought put into everything around it.

Here's the other problem and this is a very real problem which the Monero community has yet to solve. If you are a talented programmer, then you have many different IRL job opportunities and you are very likely to earn more money on the clearnet working for corpos than on the darknet selling social media accounts or making random projects. It begs the question, why would a talented programmer spend the time to work on some random darknet project that does not make a lot if any money. Usually, talented programmers that contribute in these areas are not doing it for the money, but usually because they care about something outside of money. However, mission–driven people like that are exceptionally rare. So who are we left with? Low quality "developers" and lots of AI slop coders. If you work 40 hours a week, then you have little time and energy for other things. Progress is going to be much slower and prioritization is of essence.

Given that this guy has listed aged steam, outlook, and gmail accounts on the demo site, it's pretty clear who this is targeted towards: The same crowd that lives on blackhatworld.com. Most of the sellers there are from poorer countries usually in SEA and eastern Europe where engaging in this activity pays more than many local jobs, but still pays substantially less than a job salary in a high income country. Do you need to be an excellent programmer to do any of it? Absolutely not. These are the vendors he is targeting with this software. And given how he writes (much of which is also AI) and the fact that his gitea instance is set to UTC +02:00, I think it's safe to assume he is eastern European.

Oh and here are his skills:
> General: Writing clean, maintainable code and software architecture, utilizing 10x developer AI tools, strong communication abilities, independent work.

Utilizing 10x developer AI tools... hmmm, surely he would never use AI, am I right?

I've worked for a long time in the tech industry and what this project smells like is your typical Ukrainian / Indian web dev outsourcing gig that is largely based on AI with very little time and effort being put into the very logic, use case, architecture, business requirements, and user experience. I've had work with these people IRL way too often to recognize this shit when I see it, because some of my employers wanted to go the cheaper route. I'm more than familiar with the outsourcing industry and how it works.

It's not innovative, it's not well–researched, and it's not thought out and properly planned. So yes, certified slop.

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nobswebdev

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Sep 1 07:56

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#1997

This is smear campaign against NullCart project. I shipped a quality MVP in seven months using modern development practices—including AI, but without compromising quality. The code speaks for itself. I welcome real technical feedback from people engaging in good faith.

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sepia

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Sep 1 13:09

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#2001

I agree with Yuzuki argument. When I see the project my biggest concern is, will this project maintained long term? Also if it's true that it didn't have integration feature with popular CMS it make me more skeptical about the future of the project. Even Woocommerce can be integrated with Wordpress.

It's really good constructive criticism and if you really care about the project you should be aware that the criticism was meant for the improvement of the project instead of being defensive about it.

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yuzuki

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Sep 1 19:47

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#2004

What I did was provide constructive criticism, but I am also tired of these quick one–and–done projects being shared in the Monero community without much thought and planning going into them. We need people who are obsessive, who have the necessary technical skill and discipline to plan out, manage, execute, and maintain projects with a decent longevity. High quality talent like that does not take things personal, but will argue from a point of reason. They make decisions for a reason and those reasons are usually predicated on an immense and thorough thought process, which is precisely why they are capable of defending their decisions. For example, if a Monero eCommerce platform was in fact developed by someone who put a lot of thought and effort into it, they would be able to defend their decisions, because they made those decisions for a reason.

If you said that you tested out existing CMS and you found certain issues with each of them making an integration not a viable option, that I could understand. However, I would be interested in the thought process, reasoning, and research you conducted to come to that conclusion. This is known as critical thinking. If two people who don't know each other and who live on opposite ends of the planet use the exact same objective method, they will arrive at the exact same conclusion. This is what proper research and reasoning leads to. I do not see how this project embodies this process in any way, shape or form. This is precisely the problem I am highlighting.

As someone who has real business intelligence and solution architecture experience, I know the final code is only one part of the equation, but what matters is the solution and the solution is almost always more complex in nature than the product. I would have first started to plan out who my target audience is and what problem they are facing that I am attempting to solve. You always start with the problem and not the solution. For example, who are you targeting with this? Is it the vendors I previously mentioned? Because if that is the case, most of them do not care for Monero — they just want fiat, but are limited by regulatory, legal, and institutional rules. There are many CMS with eCommerce integrations that already solve these problems for them. This solution does nothing to solve their problem.

Is it darknet market vendors? There are existing solutions out there for that and there many more features required to satisfy that customer base. Security is of the essence for this demographic and buyers will need some form of escrow service to have the confidence to hand over their money. These security features are not optional — they are essential. These features are not included and therefor this is unlikely to be your target demographic or — at the very least — this demographic is unlikely to use your product.

What about legitimate eCommerce stores that already have a storefront? Well, it can't be them either, because there is no tax or accounting integration, which is arguably the most difficult part of the accounting process for international eCommerce stores. Since you did not build an integration, they would have to offer a secondary store front just for customers who want to pay in Monero, who are most commonly a minority. Your product does nothing to solve their problems.

This is the type of thought process that must happen at the very beginning of any project and it is what is missing from many slop project. Your principles matter and these elements should be built into the solution right from the beginning rather than remain an afterthought.

There is too much hype in the Monero community with people congratulating each other just for releasing any Monero–based project. This sets a terrible precedent and does nothing to further the community's goals. The community is riddled with people who are far too ideological, but not technical. This is a technical topic and we need technical people to solve technical problems.

If you want to use AI, use AI, but don't outsource critical thinking, reasoning, planning, problem solving, and proper execution and initiation to the AI.

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USAGI

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Sep 2 02:45

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#2007

The criticism here is crazy. And I do consider it more criticism than constructive given the opening comment was an insult instead of a calm suggestion.

Nobswebdev isn't even asking for donations in providing this software. I really do not care if it is AI slop, I haven't paid him a cent for anything, so I don't feel entitled to any quality standard. This is kind of like that one thread a month ago with some dude complaining about XmrBazaar. It's a frigging free website that doesn't even charge a cut of your transactions! Donations are voluntary! These free projects owe nothing to us, everyone should just be grateful the project is even available. If you do have better standards, then make the changes yourself, considering Null Cart's script is available for anyone to fork.

For people like me who don't know how to program, anything is better than nothing, and Nobswebdev's project is probably the most comprehensive and transparent XMR payment processor out there so far. And let's say it is a truly useless project and he stops supporting it today. Doesn't matter, no one paid him anything for it. Status quo has been maintained. And even if he stops developing it, what has already been released is not only usable, but can be maintained by anyone who knows how to program its code. It's self hosted so there aren't any dependencies on him being active.

I also do not believe escrow is that important. One of the things that apply to dealing with XMR as well as all other business is that trust is not reliant on the payment processor, as scams can be performed with any payment ecosystem. XmrBazaar has seen this repeatedly with newbies here still getting scammed in spite of the good systems put in place, or the common sense to do small transactions with random sellers and avoid those that require large minimums for no reason.

Gaining a customer's trust depends on the business itself. For example I'm a small business IRL but I have several gov contracts. I gained the trust to win larger contracts by successful work for previous customers who referred me to others with say in awarding contracts. Similarly, if someone wants to make a successful XMR business, it's not going to be hindered by a lack of escrow (let's be honest, most people don't even know what it is, lol). Social media presence, store activity, and customer referral on forums by trusted members, etc, goes way further to establish oneself as a trustworthy seller. There are several guys I know who sell 3D printed gun stuff only by money order and cash through mail. It's extremely risky for a buyer. But people still use them because they established themselves in these communities as a dev from their previous work.

Obviously the biggest concern one would have with this kind of project are phishing attempts, but considering he is a well established user here, I don't think it is reasonable to be too concerned even if you don't understand the code. It's not like any of us are wheeling and dealing in large amounts of XMR among many customers on our IRL businesses either. This isn't even SaaS so he can't do the typical rug pull of offering a free program people integrate in their business then start charging subscription fees and essentially holding the business depending on it hostage. This is a nice option for a small business just to get someone started or for an aspiring developer to have a base to start a fork if they really think they can do it better.

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yuzuki

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Sep 2 04:47

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#2010

Reply to post #2007

> Nobswebdev isn't even asking for donations in providing this software. I really do not care if it is AI slop, I haven't paid him a cent for anything, so I don't feel entitled to any quality standard. This is kind of like that one thread a month ago with some dude complaining about XmrBazaar. It's a frigging free website that doesn't even charge a cut of your transactions! Donations are voluntary! These free projects owe nothing to us, everyone should just be grateful the project is even available. If you do have better standards, then make the changes yourself, considering Null Cart's script is available for anyone to fork.

XmrBazaar was intended to be made open–source, which is why people donated. It's one thing to make software in your own time with your own money, but if you tell people it will be made open–source while asking people to donate, that's a broken promise. Those are two very different scenarios.

And no, I would never fork Nullcart lol. I actually know how to program, so I don't need to rely on AI making me some JS slop.

> For people like me who don't know how to program, anything is better than nothing, and Nobswebdev's project is probably the most comprehensive and transparent XMR payment processor out there so far. And let's say it is a truly useless project and he stops supporting it today. Doesn't matter, no one paid him anything for it. Status quo has been maintained. And even if he stops developing it, what has already been released is not only usable, but can be maintained by anyone who knows how to program its code. It's self hosted so there aren't any dependencies on him being active.

Then learn how to program. There is virtually no excuse these days and you are embodying the very problem. People who know nothing about a skill use AI as a replacement for putting in the necessary time to learn the skill while telling everyone they made this themselves pretending to have the specified skill while being technically completely illiterate. Get the point? The only people who like these kind of projects are inexperienced non–technical normies like yourself. The reason you do not see anything wrong with this is precisely because you don't understand the technical aspect of programming, problem solving, and solution architecture. If you did understand these disciplines, you would see the issues with this.

> I also do not believe escrow is that important. One of the things that apply to dealing with XMR as well as all other business is that trust is not reliant on the payment processor, as scams can be performed with any payment ecosystem. XmrBazaar has seen this repeatedly with newbies here still getting scammed in spite of the good systems put in place, or the common sense to do small transactions with random sellers and avoid those that require large minimums for no reason.

If people are getting scammed, then that is the definition of a bad system. It means its current implementation does not work as intended and must be revised. That is a systemic and technical problem that has to be solved by the developers.

> Gaining a customer's trust depends on the business itself. For example I'm a small business IRL but I have several gov contracts. I gained the trust to win larger contracts by successful work for previous customers who referred me to others with say in awarding contracts. Similarly, if someone wants to make a successful XMR business, it's not going to be hindered by a lack of escrow (let's be honest, most people don't even know what it is, lol). Social media presence, store activity, and customer referral on forums by trusted members, etc, goes way further to establish oneself as a trustworthy seller. There are several guys I know who sell 3D printed gun stuff only by money order and cash through mail. It's extremely risky for a buyer. But people still use them because they established themselves in these communities as a dev from their previous work.

People on the darknet absolutely know what escrow is. It is a feature that creates the basis of virtually every darknet market.

> Obviously the biggest concern one would have with this kind of project are phishing attempts, but considering he is a well established user here, I don't think it is reasonable to be too concerned even if you don't understand the code. It's not like any of us are wheeling and dealing in large amounts of XMR among many customers on our IRL businesses either. This isn't even SaaS so he can't do the typical rug pull of offering a free program people integrate in their business then start charging subscription fees and essentially holding the business depending on it hostage. This is a nice option for a small business just to get someone started or for an aspiring developer to have a base to start a fork if they really think they can do it better.

I never implied he will use it for phishing purposes. It is just one of those projects which will have a 404 page where it once had a git repo.

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USAGI

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Sep 2 06:43

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#2011

Your arguments don't hold much weight if you are not presenting your own superior project. I'm not doubting you can do better or that his code may be low quality. I have no idea, it looks good enough to me. But no, I'm not going to learn to program this project from scratch just to find out. There are many other skills I can put my time into developing that actually furthers my career than programming which is not very important to my overall needs. I'm not a programmer, I'm an engineer, and the reason I can get gov contracts even though a big corporations like Honeywell could make a nicer product is because I have solutions that can be deployed now, while my competition does not. Time and availability is a quality of its own, as a perfect solution too late, is worse than satisfactory now. In tune with that concept, if I don't have a skill for a project, I hire a SME who does, which is much more time efficient than spending months learning the skill only for a competitor to bid before me and steal my job. If I really wanted a high fidelity XMR payment processor I would either find a paid service that provides customer service or hire someone to build it to my exact specs.

And even if you do have an awesome payment processor ready for release (I understand there are more mature XMR PP projects already in existence) it is still irrelevant to the fact Nobswebdev provided something for free without any strings attached. Jumping in and attacking it for not being as good as it could be is very unprofessional. I know a lot about fighting with drones for example, and I get a good laugh at some youtube vids that show tactics that really aren't that up to date. However I charge for consulting, while they provide the information to the public for free. So even though I could provide better quality training, they are actually still inherently providing a service that I don't provide. I don't post comments on their videos mocking them for "slop" training. If I really feel that strongly about it, I would post my own training video.

If your definition of bad systems are ones where people get scammed, then all systems are bad. Even payment processing companies that have very high talent and near infinite disposable income fail to stop scams from happening on their systems because the weak link of all security is always the end user. What matters most is for users to always understand the possibility of failure and to develop their own contingencies for it.

Darknet users know what escrow is. This isn't the dark net if you haven't noticed. Everything we do here is fully known and monitored by feds, and most newbie monero users are still financially illiterate for the most part that still have the "graph goes up means more gooder" mindset. The average smoothbrain like myself can find a lot of value in Null Cart versus dreaming about it for years only for it to never manifest. If you want Monero to be mainstream you have to accept the fact that the vast majority of Monero users are going to be computer illiterate, because the majority of the population is practically illiterate, period. lol

I'm not saying you think he is phishing, but that it would be the reasonable skepticism one would have to his project, not the lack of professional coding that you are hung up about. I do not have any standards for things given to me free. If it is unacceptable, I simply don't use it, but I'm still grateful to a guy who even took the time to give it to me in the first place. I am still grateful if he abandons the project. It's free my dude.

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