Fake Reviews RFC | XmrBazaar

cypherpink

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Oct 26 15:38

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#2518

TL;DR: Faking reviews for yourself cost $0 here. If there’s a loophole and a few psychopathic actors to abuse it, everyone else must also start abusing it, otherwise risking failing in competition. The XmrBazaar must take the problem very seriously, and implement a solution as soon as possible, since we may already be having invisible consequences (there have been multiple reports expressing concerns about someone possibly fabricating reviews).

This is a final and serious proposal, based on many discussions (including Let's fight fake reviews. How?, Weighting reviews, Weight votes by users' validity score), and separate comments (like 1, 2, 3), as well as long talks in the trollbox late at night. Thanks to everyone who has helped to build the idea.

AI was used with this, so I will appreciate any re-checks.
Full-ass Request for Comments document (including the math): https://cryptpad.egali.top/file/#/2/file/8OTGqNqwpKXZHu4g+XNg247A/

***

# The problem
Right now anyone can open free accounts, "buy" from themselves and leave themselves five stars. XmrBazaar never sees payments, so a fake order costs nothing — and it pays off, because reviews decide who lands in Popular, and determine the p2p trust. As said, leave that loophole open and honest sellers get two options: fake too, or lose to those who do.

Chasing/analyzing fakes does not work on a privacy market: an honest buyer on a fresh account looks exactly like a sock puppet. A different (game theory based) approach would instead make them worthless. This will not require KYC, IP or device data collection, nor secret algorithm. It will also free good people for accusations.

# 1. Every review is weighted by real trust

A review counts as much as its author's trading history — and history can only be earned through real trades with members who already have it. It starts from "seeds": a small public list of long-standing, hand-vetted members and spreads deal by deal ("Top Sellers" is a good candidate for this).

A ring of alts that only trades with itself gets nothing in, so it weighs nothing: 10 alts or 1000, a week old or a year old. Seller's own replies to his "buyers" don't count toward his own rating. The math is short and can be fully public.

# 2. Visibility follows weighted reviews

Popular and "sort by reviews" switch to the weighted score. Fake reviews stop buying positions, so nobody has to fake to keep up. Nothing gets auto-punished either: junk reviews, votes and reports from zero-weight accounts are simply ignored, so nobody can sink a competitor with spam. Raw counts stay visible.

# 3. Bonds: the one signal alts can't fake

Even though I'm highly skeptical with how bonds currently work, a bond is real XMR locked with an independent holder — no army of alts can fake that. Show "buyer insured up to XXX Monero" next to the stars, give bonded listings a small capped ranking bonus (+20% at most, so money can't buy the top), and make bonds affordable for small sellers. Bonds also cover what no review system can: an exit scam after honestly earned reputation.

Edited: Oct 28 01:03

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SoulReaver

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Oct 26 23:02

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#2529

I am thinking we can also easily make faking a signal costly. Charge 0.001 Monero for every review you want to write?

TernLatch is currently spamming forum w/ absolute bottom of the barrel Clanker slop. Charge that too let us see how the llm slop works once it costs...

Edited: Oct 26 23:07

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MoneroThetford

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Oct 27 04:03

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#2535

your system push buying/selling/hiring with already established big accounts. you must also consider newcomers and their growth. i admit i didnt understand some of the math, but here are my views of this. we must still weight a low review/low trust account as X. so their interactions and trades are still valuable and stack up with time. new accounts must not be stuck in limbo. the initial step of the first few trades is extremely steep. it is super important for the website growth for honest people to be upped and bad people being downed.

the current system has all review visible and counted. so all transactions are clear and equal. its on the shoulder of the person browsing to analyze the situation and choose. also its important not to worry about the few negative reviews. its impossible to please everybody and even the best seller/service will get bad reviews. just like there are bad stores, there are bad clients...

another unrelated problem i noticed on the site is some people spamming dislikes on products/service pages. i noticed listing being downvoted for no apparent reason. we should have a spam detector to prevent anybody just going around and mass (dis)like things to affect the public image of some things. the whole up/down thing on listing isnt a good idea in my opinion.

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CANADA

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Oct 27 14:12

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#2536

There should not be downvoting or upvoting at all. It is intended for things like social comments, opinions, pictures. An item for sale is neither postive or negative and viewers opinion about it has no relevance and should be kept to themselves. All this leads to is a bunch of idiots upvoting weed or telegram accounts and then then downvoting their competition or things they don't need or understand, or worse people from one part of the word judging what cost and availability is in another part of the world.

It was a dumb idea to begin with. There should simply be silent flaggging to alert the admin of bad ads.

Problems solved, also solves the problem who should be on top, by default its date of post.

As for feedback, there should not be any chance for manipulation. Feedback should only be left when the system registers a trade. The community can do the rest by seeing what stands out as bogus and FB manipultion should be a termination of account. The best police is not a broken system with dumb rules, it's usually your nearest competitior/neighbour.

There should be strict rules on duplicate listings or near identical listings, solves problem from the babyboi post as well which is really complaining that one user has thinned our their KYC ads.

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nobswebdev

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Oct 27 16:24

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#2538

I agree that we need better review system, maybe not necessarily in exact shape as suggested here, but we need something well think-through.

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Reaverfan

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Oct 28 23:05

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#2559

Reply to post #2538

Mostly we need to know about your case. Just yapping with all those evident fake reviews. You don't get ashamed?.. Ooh nooh, you can't, ITS YOUR PLAN ..damn..you cooked us.

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MoneroThetford

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Oct 27 16:42

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#2539

well we are thinking about it right now. any suggestions welcome.
it is the time to talk about it.

current ideas:
-weight reviews by account trust and implement a total score
-remove the [UP] and [DOWN] voting system
-implement somekind of bond/insurance

about the bond idea. the problem is that XmrBazaar seem to want to separate themselves from directly touching money and transactions. so there would need to be a trusted 3rd party to hold the money and act as the arbitrator.

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nobswebdev

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Oct 27 16:55

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#2540

Before you invest time into inventing perfect review system ensure administration is actually interested in changes. I didn't see any improvements recently even those that are easy wins like fixing listing search so user experience is not like digging through rubbish to find that one guy that have legit listing.

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Reaverfan

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Oct 28 22:05

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#2554

Reply to post #2540

Yeah, definitely we need change (personally because of you) but I assume it's too late since you already farmed all the reviews needed.
It's irritating seeing you farm the reviews and waiting for unknowing community to fall for it. Dumb sh(t together with your brother DumpSurveillance.

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babyboi098

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Nov 1 15:30

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#2598

Reply to post #2540

this exactly what i been saying. if you look at the changelog, no updates in a few months, and yeah so many issues not being addressed. i love cypherpinks idea but i think these guys are content to keep recieving donations and boosts without doing any real improving to the site. this is why i dont wanna boost beyond the minimum and why i wont donate beyond the minimum. i hate how the most unappreciative people get to have nice things.

Edited: Nov 1 15:31

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MoneroThetford

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Oct 27 17:03

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#2541

first step in fixing something is recognizing the problem. this is what this forum is for. we are all users and working our best to call out problems and thinking of solutions. the ball is then in the hands of the site administrator(s). we are doing our best to help. all inputs are welcome, be they constructive or not. most of us arent programers, but we can still put our shoulders to the wheel.

only way for evil to win is for good people to do nothing.

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EthanAllenHawley

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Oct 27 22:57

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#2547

Maybe let people still comment transactions for free, but let the star rating cost a tiny amount of XMR. Like, giving 1-4 stars costs 0,0001 XMR which go to the site, giving 5 stars costs 0,0002 XMR, from which 0,0001 go to the site and 0,0001 to the seller as a tip.
That way, people could still rate their transactions for free in some sort of way, but the star-rating we see would be more meaningful.
I've done two official transactions here so far and I'm pretty sure, both buyers wouldn't have minded the extra minute of time and the 0,0002 XMR. But it would probably be too much effort to fake it in a large quantum.

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AshleyJones

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Oct 28 01:59

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#2548

I wrote a number of paragraphs, then I remembered Cypherpink has asked for weighted reviews for months, and has been ignored for months. Maybe they'll get around to it after we donate another $47,000[¹].
[¹] https://xmrbazaar.com/fundraiser/

🫱(‿¤‿)🫲

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babyboi098

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Nov 1 15:35

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#2599

Reply to post #2548

i hate seeing how much money they've made simply by being a monopoly. I wish MoneroMarket was still around. also something people dont know is that AilliA has made literally thousands of dollars larping as a woman. https://xmrchat.com/aillia

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AshleyJones

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Nov 1 22:44

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#2613

Reply to post #2599

LOL Someone else finally says it. I've said it privately but nobody believes me. Take a look at that adam's apple. I find it offensive that being a woman is boiled down to shoving his tits up and posing sexually. For transsexuals, femininity is strictly sexual. Hence, anytime AIllia has shown himself, it's ALWAYS in a sexual pose. Here's evidence:

1. https://ibb.co/CKW6Sh9L (From Aillia's video: https://odysee.com/AilliA:6/AilliA_Happy_11th_moneroversary:4 )
2. https://ibb.co/8DjfjsH7 (From Aillia's Twitter and Substack)
3. https://ibb.co/k2MB7r1Y

I know I'll get banned because of me saying this. I don't care anymore, this site is truly in the shitter. Something better will come along and I'll use that. I'm sure it'll ACTUALLY be free, unlike this place, which bans you if you say something they dislike or sell something that opposes their political alignment.

Good luck fellas, those who donated did so in hopes of this website becoming open source so WE could improve it. Thousand and thousands of dollars later, hasn't happened. How many more months does the insecure dev need to "clean up" the (vibe) code?

And we'll see how quickly Aillia's moderation skills come into play when someone says something mean against trannies :'( Meanwhile, he lets scammers spam the trollbox with fake XMR exchanges and NOTHING happens.

Edited: Nov 1 22:51

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babyboi098

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Nov 1 22:53

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#2614

Reply to post #2613

actually i think that video is AI generated, or altered at least. look at the shirt edges near the bosom.

otherwise, morgan freeman true gif react

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AshleyJones

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Nov 1 22:59

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#2616

Reply to post #2614

It's real. He put a lamp under his tits to accentuate them even more. The middle appears not to touch because there is less flesh in the middle (cleavage), the outer tit flesh is pushing up against the shirt. This happens to any female (or one trying to be female) that wears a tight fitting top.

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babyboi098

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Nov 1 22:55

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#2615

Reply to post #2613

btw the fact that you still have that red triangle warning badge while also being a top seller and mediator is kinda hilarious xd

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CANADA

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Oct 28 20:30

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#2552

I think the best thing to do is focus on making the site easy to use and not really worry so much about these little details. With 9000 ads wordwide and 7 views per ad some people might just go away when they see all the unfriendly features, like expiring ads after 30 days and paying for things. I don't think comments or votes should be allowed, it should be just like ebay, one feedback per successful sale with strict rules for feedback abuse. Worry about the rest later.

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nobswebdev

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Nov 2 10:52

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#2619

What I read here just blown my mind. I am not accusing, but it might be true. I agree that site is going downhill. There is no good manager.

Edited: Nov 2 11:11

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cypherpink

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Nov 2 19:52

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#2636

I think I'd like to take an open stance on a few things.

1. I seriously doubt that DumpSurveillance and nobswebdev are faking their reviews on a mass scale. Of course, I have no more ability to verify this than anyone else. I'm going off a few assumptions:

- Analyzing "weird" review activity is extremely speculative. Most of my own reviews come from blank auto-reg accounts with 1–2 purchases, but I know those purchases really happened. A lot of buyers just aren't interested in building an identity here. One of my customers once told me he'd already made 10+ purchases from me, but I would never recognize him, because he registered a throwaway account every time.
- There are indirect signs that these accounts really are making sales. For example, some of their deals were closed through a mediator, and some others with verified users. After nobswebdev's paysafecard-to-xmr sales took off, he raised his fee, which looks realistic. DumpSurveillance regularly boosts his listings with large sums, which would be pointless if he had no real sales. None of this rules out the possibility that some reviews are padded, but it clearly doesn't look like most of them are fake.
- Overall, finding a niche and suddenly having sales go really well is a perfectly real scenario. For me it was Telegram accounts: much to my own surprise, people are still highly interested in them — it's my best-selling listing on the market. I find it entirely plausible that paysafecards-to-xmr and KYC assistance turned out the same way.

At the end of the day, we once again need an updated rating system, so we can know for sure who's faking it and who's not, lol.

2. I find transphobia disgusting. When someone asks to be referred to as her, it's usually meant very seriously. Distrust often comes from not having any personal experience with trans people; I myself used to be moderately conservative about gender claims, until I became close friends with a trans man — his heavy, everyday suffering over a body that felt ugly and wrong to him moved me so much that, honestly, I'd have been ready to call him ze/zir/zur whatever pronouns if that shit made his suffering any easier. Provocatively calling trans girls "he" and discussing details of their bodies is unacceptable, just as it would be with anyone else.

And that's even setting aside the discussion of AilliA's gender. Speaking about her specifically, I see no reason to doubt she's a cis woman. All the current evidence (adam's apple screenshot analysis, poses on the photos) frankly sounds like utter nonsense. As far as I know, Douglas has seen AilliA in person on MoneroTopia, so to defend this conspiracy theory you'd have to account for him too. Eventually, this kind of paranoid fixation on prying out someone's "real" sex is unhealthy in itself.

3. I'm firmly in favor of pushing back against aggression, verbal aggression included. I think it makes sense even in the most anarcho-capitalist / egoist terms (which I personally don't agree with). It doesn't restrict free speech: any idea, even a crazy one, can be discussed in a kind tone, all it takes is good faith. Racism, sexism, homophobia and the rest of vestigials have no worth defending; while spaces where some human traits are regularly targeted are unfriendly and counterproductive. Slippery-slope arguments (“if we ban fascism today, tomorrow we'll ban everything!”) are absurd — nobody would defend the "freedom to enslave" or the "freedom to commit physical aggression" the same way.

A society that answers chaotic aggression with a demand for restraint and self-control is no less free. In fact, it's the only society that can survive freedom.

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AshleyJones

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Nov 2 20:19

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#2637

If Aillia comes here, he will deny it 100%. Why admit this, when you have dudes sending you hundreds of dollars per donation? Why give up the sexual validation? "I like your glittery titties", as some dude said to Aillia.

The dude looks to be 6 feet tall in the outdoor picture, huge feet, huge adam's apple, has breast implants, masculine musculoskeletal body, and is hyper-sexual around strangers. His hair is long yet doesn't straighten it or have even basic layers cut into it like a real woman would do. Doug would say, "Yeah I saw her in real life. He- oh, she's definitely a real woman". What these people SAY doesn't matter. They SAY these donations will improve the website. They lie. The fact that people genuinely believe they're donating hundreds of dollars to a woman passionately into Monero are sorely mistaken. Long hair and adding emojis at the end of your sentence doesn't make you a woman. 🍆✨

There's a reason Aillia always says he "feels like an alien" all of the time. This isn't a woman.

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